Freshly Brewed: The Coffee Podcast for Home Brewers

Cold Espresso, Insanely Fast Cold Brew, and the Osma Pro with Joey Roth

September 08, 2021 Brian Renshaw Episode 17
Freshly Brewed: The Coffee Podcast for Home Brewers
Cold Espresso, Insanely Fast Cold Brew, and the Osma Pro with Joey Roth
Show Notes Transcript

This week I sit down with Joey Roth, the mastermind behind the Osma Pro, which is a countertop cold espresso machine.

Joey is an inherently curious person and coffee enthusiast, which has culminated in researching the idea of cold espresso. This was a fascinating conversation learning about the process of creating the Osma Pro and the science and technology behind it.

If you’re enjoying the podcast I’d encourage you to share this on social media or a friend. Also, leaving a review on Apple Podcast is really helpful for assisting others in find the podcast that are looking for something like this in the coffee space.

Connect:

Links:


Brian Renshaw:

Hey, and welcome back to freshly brewed the coffee podcast for home brewers. This week I sit down with Joey Roth, the man behind the Osma Pro cold espresso machine. We dive deep into the science and technology behind this innovative device and discuss implications for the future. This was a fascinating conversation. And I've learned a lot. As always, there will be links to things that we talked about in the show notes. But let's go ahead and get started with my conversation with Joey from Drink Osma. Welcome, Joey. How you doing today?

Joey Roth:

I'm good. Thank you, Brian. Thank you so much for having me.

Brian Renshaw:

Yeah, I'm excited to have this conversation. This is a, you know, you're the creator of an interesting product product. And I'm excited to dive deep into it.

Joey Roth:

Totally, totally. I'm excited to talk about it. This has been my obsession for like the last three plus years. So I have a lot to say.

Brian Renshaw:

Well, before we kind of dive into that once here, who is Joey Roth?

Joey Roth:

Yeah. So Joey Roth is me. I've been doing product design, development, and businesses around those for the last like decade. Plus, at this point, like I think I launched my first product was actually a tea product called the sauropod back in 2007, which is right around the time I was graduating college. So this is pretty much what I've been doing for my whole career. In college, I got really into SolidWorks through my engineering coursework SolidWorks was not new, but that that kind of like parametric based CAD modeling was kind of new back then. Now it's like totally the standard, it's getting disrupted by some other cloud based stuff. But back then SolidWorks was really cool. So and we had one of the very, very, very first like, early 3d printers on campus like this is this is before you had like maker BOD and 3d printing was a thing. So yeah, my buddies and I would just kind of in college, like make all kinds of crazy stuff. Like we, we tend to start a business around led bass music stand lights, and I designed the enclosure, they did a lot of the E, we sold a couple of those. But again, this was this was a while ago, man, this was before Kickstarter is like a different world. So if you wanted to make a product back then you kind of needed to like, you know, it's like those infomercials, you see, sometimes like inventhelp kind of stuff, like get a patent and submitted to industry or whatever they call it, it wasn't, there weren't these paths that were way lower friction for people who just had really good ideas, they're also just the distribution. Like, I, we had no idea how to like find people to buy these new satellites, we thought Oh, we can go to like different college music programs and like do, you know, get them to buy hundreds of these at a time there wasn't like now if I were going to launch a new kind of music satellite, I go on, like Reddit and find like musician communities, you know, there's just there's ways of accessing and also such as access and people, like, the ability to connect to these communities creates certain types of people and certain types of ways of performing interests and engaging with interests that just straight up didn't exist back then. So yeah, when I started, I've always been really into products, I've always been really into designing specifically products to sort of enhance hobbies or enhance meaningful everyday rituals, or just enhance like one of the, you know, somebody has like a top 10 things they care about. I want to design for one of those things for the person like I want to design for a person who cares about that level. So that's the approach I took with audio with tea my earliest design with with coffee now. I'm designing stuff for for people who just really care about coffee and want to push the limits of what's possible there. And that's definitely the most gratifying kind of design or to do is for me,

Brian Renshaw:

You've definitely had an interesting journey because you know, I think I first knew about you through your Grovemade wooden speakers Oh, yeah. And but you so you've done a lot of stuff with sound and now you've kind of entered into this coldest reso with this technology. How did how did you get interested in like sound and you know how it relates to what we were going to talk about more is making coffee

Joey Roth:

Yeah, yeah, it's a good question. So this whole journey with with cold espresso and fast cold brew started with it just sort of me and my buddy one of one of the friends I did the music satellite with his name's Dan. I'm still really good friends with him and he's my partner. And also right now we've been doing stuff together for a really long time. I'm more the coffee nerd than he is. He likes coffee. But I'm sort of like into coffee. And I became really obsessed with like, what are the how do you capture the full spectrum of compounds flavor and aroma compounds that coffee has. Because with all the existing processes, you're you're sort of like filtering out some class of those compounds, even if you're not intending to, like with the hot processes, like the traditional espresso pourover, Aeropress, anything that uses hot water. any level of heat above like 60 C, which is required for brewing, if you're gonna use heat for brewing, tends to like certain compounds are just really sensitive to heat, and they can still have a flavor and aroma. But in the presence of heat, if you're extracting with heat, they will denature oftentimes, before you can perceive them. So a lot of the time, this takes the form of of compounds, that could be flavor compounds, they're so volatile, that they just evaporate pretty much in the presence of heat. And you can you can get an aroma during brewing, that's difficult to transfer to the actual finished product. Because some of those compounds as well won't survive, you can you can experience it and perceive it if you're right next to the brewing device, and you're being very methodical about it. Like if you're doing a shot of espresso, and you're making sure to sort of experience the aroma throughout the entire shot, you could include that as part of the experience. But once that shots in the in the cup, even if you pull it right from the machine and start to experience it, you're going to already have lost a number of heat sensitive compounds that you just can't perceive at that point is they were part of the extraction. Ditto with cold brew. I mean, I think what's exciting that cold brew minds become popular is because it preserves all the heat sensitive compounds. And so people who maybe are new to coffee or just new to cold brew, can describe like tasting a lot of different flavors in this or it's like very balanced. It's very smooth. And I think that's a way of describing you're just able to perceive a wider range of compounds and normally our coffee because the the heat wasn't there to act as its unintentional filter that got rid of a lot of those. The issue with cold brew though like Toddy style or drip style, these are hours long processes. So there's another class of compounds, the flavor and aroma compounds that you won't even be able to access if you if you are going that slow. That's why like, again, to go back to traditional espresso, when you extract a shot of espresso, if you let it sit in the cup for like 10 minutes after extraction, it's going to be a very different tasting shot than if you consume it right after you do the extraction. Like literally in the course of minutes, you have some flavor and aroma compounds that are just breaking down. Because they're so time sensitive. Yeah, that's another that's sort of what gives espresso or even like a fresh pourover or Aeropress, a fresh quality and a lot of the time with traditional cold brew, even if it's smooth and complex and balanced. There's this lingering like staleness to it. Not not stale, like it went bad but stale. Just like this is clearly not fresh coffee and right. It's exactly you can taste that it almost tastes like even the best traditional cold brew, I've had. You You could tell me it was like some really good like instant coffee. And I believe, you know, he told me it was like some new kind of like Sudden Coffee or even like a Cometeer kind of thing. And I'm like, Oh, yeah, that's okay. It doesn't have the same quality of like just being extracted, there's something about that. And again, we're doing is part of like, right now our priority is getting these units manufactured, make sure that each one going out is fully thoroughly tested and get them into customers. So that's kind of occupying all of our time right now. Once we have a little bit of breathing room there, and people have gotten their units that they pre ordered, we have a number of lab tests that we want to do on on what exactly is in our extraction that you don't get with other extractions actually like a stereo lithography analysis of like, What are these? What are these compounds? How do they pop on a histogram? What is it versus traditional espresso versus cold brew, and then actually have a visual, quantitative representation of what we're able to do here. But in terms of why we did this, that was the goal. That's why we tried to do fast cold brew like, can we capture both the heat sensitive competence and the time sensitive compounds, they get lost one way or the other way. And that's what that's what led down this path.

Brian Renshaw:

That is fascinating, not only to think of the question, you know, how does this happen, but to take take the next step into you know, making it so how does how does this actually work?

Joey Roth:

Yeah, so, I'll start I'll kind of pick up there because it how it works is based very much on like other way have tried to get it to work, it didn't work. So the first way that we tried, we were like, Okay, well to extract coffee, there's like some phase change that happens because you have really hot water. So water, even if it's not like boiling water, it has to be hot because there's, there's like some, basically like the molecules are moving faster and you can the coffee is becoming steam. So we thought, okay, if we want to do that, but now he had even harder both at he vacuum. So we got a commercial vacuum sealer, kind of like what they use for suevey. One of those being dudes with thick polymer with you press it down and draws like an atmosphere vacuum really loud, big commercial fan. We just put coffee and water in the correct ratio and a mason jar, stuck it in there, close the lid and we basically boiled the water at room temperature by using a vacuum. And it worked like we could we could get to like a 1.8 TDS Toddy accelerated data extraction in like 10 minutes, basically. Yeah. And it tasted okay. It was really similar to traditional homebrew though, it wasn't, it wasn't what we were hoping for in terms of like traditional cold brew, plus the fresh taste that you get with like pourover. It was when we did some blind taste tests ourselves and other people literally couldn't tell the difference between the coffee prepared that way and the coffee prepared using you know, the same ratio, same beans, but 18 hours. So we thought, Okay, well, this is kind of interesting, like using a vacuum sealer to do accelerated cold brew. But when we really started thinking about it, commercializing something like this would suck, because you have this like $8,000 commercial Vacuum Sealing machine, you would need to basically put, like, sell this machine modified to make coffee. But the expensive parts of this are the parts that would still be expensive for drawing an atmosphere and boiling water room temperature in order to create this 10 minute, like accelerated cold brew. So that would have like relegated us to really like the commercial commercial market with something like basically convincing cafes and maybe like CPG bottlers that, like, you know, they could speed up something that currently takes hours, but you'd have to pay this high price for this big noisy machine. And the your customers might not actually be able to tell the difference between this and what you're doing right now. Right, which just didn't seem super compelling. So we started to think, Okay, well, vacuum works, but it's kind of this non product sizable method. Let's go deeper and think like what what has actually happened, what is boiling mean, in the context of extracting coffee. So we did, we did some more research, we spoke with one of our engineering professors, one of the guys who actually like helped me with my thesis back when I was in college, then car ever Bach he's focus is on acoustic cavitation applied to medical challenges. So acoustic cavitation is this thing that all it basically means is in the presence of oscillating pressure, bubble nuclei, which are sort of the potential for bubbles to form that exists in water and coffee grounds and a lot of stuff in the presence of oscillating pressure, like a pressure wave, they will start to oscillate in sync with the frequency of the pressure oscillation, and they tend to grow through that oscillation, like the fact they're oscillating, gets them to kind of grow in that. And as they're growing, they're, they're kind of expanding and contracting in and out in sync with whatever the sine wave is of pressure. And that is creating shear forces where the bubble boundaries are against whatever, wherever these bubble nuclei are located through this process of rarefaction. And compression, which is like the expansion and the contraction of this bubble, the bubble kind of grows in cycles and but overall, it's growing and it becomes from a bubble nuclei to a micro bubble. And all this time, the bubbles are trying to reach their resonant diameter. So what that means is, they want to get to the point where they're resonating with the frequency of this pressure oscillation they're being exposed to which you know, given the frequencies reasonably awesome and they're never going to reach but that's that's kind of part of the design. Where this led us though thinking about like what's actually happening and could it be acoustic cavitation was ultrasound. So ultrasound is usually when you're using acoustic cavitation and sort of an engineering sense you're using ultrasonic frequencies. So this is like how, if you from an ultrasonic jewelry cleaner, you just have this tub basically, you put in a special cleaning liquid, you put your your rings and jewelry in there, and there's ultrasonic transducers on the walls and it pays exposes the liquid and then the jewelry in the bath to these ultrasonic frequencies which causes cavitation to occur. And that that cavitation has like a scrubbing effect on whatever dirt is, is around the jewelry. So we started our first stop was ultrasonic frequencies like exposing coffee and water in this immersion setup to ultrasound. And again, it was sort of similar to what we got with the vacuum in that it worked. It still took like upwards of 10 minutes. And the results weren't like, amazing. I mean, they made cold brew, you can make cold breeze and ultrasound, it's a cool experiment to rig up. But it wasn't, it's still it wasn't exciting enough to really go for it. But we knew that we were we were onto something from there. At this point I we started to sort of engage like other like potential coffee partners, and I met James and he they're from Chromatic Coffee and around this point, and started talking with them, kind of show them where we were. And right around this point, we you know, they had a bunch of like espresso machines and that kind of typical cafe setup stuff over there. And I started thinking, you know, is could could raising the pressure floor. So like, ultrasound, for example is like, it is an oscillation of pressure. But the pressure floor is like nothing do with a vacuum. You're never pressurizing you just depressurizing it, I started to think could pressure be playing a role here. Like if we kind of swing from high pressure to lower pressure, but still have a higher pressure floor. And at this point, we started to sort of take apart old Marzocco special machines and and start playing with like, what can we do in the context of espresso remove heat from the equation. And can we do something to what's happening in the group had to take the place of heat. And that's that like using acoustic cavitation to take the place of heat what I said before about taking advantage of the sheer forces that the bubbles, the micro bubbles, exert on whatever is around them, as they're also going through this compression rarefaction cycle as they're growing. That's essentially how we ended up getting asked to work. So we're using frequencies way lower than ultrasound, or I'm not really using them for the same reason. We're using them to kind of get these bubbles that are that are already in the coffee from the roasting process to grow and grow in this oscillating way. And that oscillation of these many, many, many, many micro bubbles during the brew cycle is is basically scraping through the shearing forces scraping against the coffee grounds in the porta filter, and at a really small scale, releasing the flavor and aroma compounds into the liquid which is being passed through under pressure, oscillating pressure the way you would with a typical espresso machine.

Brian Renshaw:

Wow. That is that is fascinating. So how long have you been working on this?

Joey Roth:

This we started playing with this like three, three and a half years ago.

Brian Renshaw:

Okay.

Joey Roth:

Yeah. So this is this has been a fairly, especially for my stuff. It's been a pretty long development process.

Brian Renshaw:

Did you guys take kind of a detour with kind of a on the go cold brew?

Joey Roth:

Yeah, exactly. So when we started we wanted to, we had this vision of, sort of, because we had a we had a technology that wouldn't use require heat. In order to brew the coffee. We thought, alright, well this is really interesting. We could make pods basically, that are fully biodegradable because they don't have to withstand heat. That's like the main thing, forcing, you know the dominant pod systems especially on Keurig away from truly, truly biodegradable materials. They have biodegradable pods now but they're not like you throw them in your compost and they're gone. In 90 days. They're like you send them to commercial compost and specialized settings they can degrade over time but yeah, no like really just like coffee filter level biodegradable. And so we we started kind of pursuing that as the first privatization of this. We developed this what was it sugar cane five right we use bad gas which is sugar cane fiber, sugar cane fiber bass pods. To compact little brewer that was running on a lithium ion skateboard battery, little miniature pump, miniaturized version of what we have in the pro now. And yeah, we started to we never truly took it to market. We did like a pre launch just to assess like, Is this working? How are people using this. And this one was also we had developed a Bluetooth based recipe framework so people could create recipes and eventually share them. And all this stuff that we're going to use for add ons to the Pro. Now, you definitely want to get the recipe system up. I mean, we have a long list of additions and things we're going to build on this, given how popular it's been. But yeah, the portable one, it was really, I'd say it wasn't like our first product that was more like our first embodiment that got us to where we are right now with a pro. Because what we're doing is we were trying to make this system as efficient as possible so that it can burn from a battery. And without that, without that like needing to make it as efficient as possible, we wouldn't have this incredible power on tap that now with the pro plugs into the wall, we're able to turn that efficiency just towards like raw extraction performance. If we'd been going from wall from day one, I think there would have been less of a desperations a kind of dramatic word but like yeah, desperation to get it to work under such low power conditions. Yeah. But yeah, in terms of the the pod system that we develop, I think why we moved away from that. We just found that the the folks who were really into this, were really into the technology and what what the potential was for pushing the boundaries of what you can do with coffee, less so the type of folks who'd be super into a new pod system. And I think that the pod the ability use during the bedroom, edible pods is still a very cool part of this. And something that we might go back if we apply the technology to our more mass market product at some point. But right now, I think we've we've really found our sweet spot, designed for people who love to experiment with their coffee and kind of push it to to new places.

Brian Renshaw:

Awesome. So I think, you know, on your Instagram and website, you say that this produces 10 ounces of cold brew or cold espresso. And so is there a kind of a limit of how much you can make, you know, with this, or how does it work.

Joey Roth:

There's basically two different modes. And I think I actually need to do a better job of describing this on the site and on social. But basically, there's two ways to use the Osma Pro. The first way, which is the way that we initially developed and is more unique is the recirculation mode, and that's where you would get like 10 to 12 ounces of output. In this mode, you start with however much liquid you want the device to output, you put that in a cup, you can add some ice if you want to, or you can do to room temp, you put that on the drip tray, put the straw inside and you press the button to go. And that liquid will be cycled through the coffee and the porta filter multiple times. So usually like a 92nd extraction of the liquid is going to pass the porta filter three to four times and this like multiple pass then I think the only other coffee system that uses that is like your your old school percolator where you literally percolate the water through multiple times that's that's totally different in terms of it was hot water, really not a lot of control available to the person using it. We do the multiple passes, because it's it sort of spaces out the the amount of time, but also it mitigates any issues of preparation really well. So if you have a non perfectly prepared puck, if you're restricting the liquid through continuously for 90 seconds, and that's that that puck is under oscillating pressure, which is very different from a normal espresso machine where it's engineered to be as consistent, a pressure source as possible. The pressure is oscillating, it's essentially re tamping itself, like 200 times every minute, you're gonna get a really good, very controllable and consistent result from that recirculation. And that gives you sort of this, this. Yeah, it's it's cold brew, but it has a spresso qualities in terms of the mouthfeel. A lot of the more fresh volatile compounds do get extracted, and the crema and sort of the overall micro bubble ish texture. sort of similar to nytro not as extreme, but we definitely developed the crema and it has that. Yeah, I'd say like the closest drink to would probably be like a long black or a nitrile cold brew. But it's it's different than both of those. So that's the first So the second way is, is is a single pass. So this is really the same as how a normal espresso machine would work where you have a source of water, the water is pushed through the pot once and on the other side, it's collected into an empty cup. We didn't know we could do this, or it would, it would actually work until we started to experiment with it. But our system and our technology is powerful enough that you can really do a single pass hold espresso shot. And personally, this is how I use my iPad Pro. I think this is like the most exciting thing that it does. You basically, it goes slower than your typical hot espresso shot. So it's about 45 seconds per ounce. So if you wanted to do like a four hour three or four ounce shot, which is like a triple or double shot, or quadruple shot, however you want to call it. That would be like in the minutes. But the output is completely unique and has really gotten me to enjoy straight espresso shots. I mean, yeah, I like coffee. But normally, unless it was like really, really, really expertly done with like perfect coffee and all conditions being perfect. Most most of the time, just drinking straight espresso was a bit much for me, because the I think a lot of people have the same approach. And this is why there's so much perfectionism around espresso, like, perfectly done as best as it can just be the greatest thing ever. But nine times out of 10 any issues with it will just be very, very personified. Yeah, exactly, exactly. Whereas like pourover Aeropress, or one of these others are just so much more forgiven. And if you're making your daily coffee, you might be going in front of those unless you're really good at espresso. Because you just want a kind of result that you know what we good each time using the Osma Pro for a cold espresso shot, it's still requires more of the user than the recirculation mode. But you at least for somebody on my skill level, which is definitely not like professional level, you can get a delicious shot pretty much every time with it. Because the it kind of is the same reason why cold brew is smooth bounce and all this stuff, it's just so much more tolerant of of less than perfect preparation and extraction, the fact that he is not part of the equation, and instead you're using this still effective, but just more dentals not the right word, but more balanced way of getting all of the compounds versus this intense filter that he kind of throws over the compounds in the coffee. You just get a result that's that's really interesting and really drinkable by itself each time. So yeah, that's those are basically the two ways that you use the Pro. And both of those Yeah, like the single pass. I mean, I've I've taken it up to like six ounces, which is really like a really long black. It doesn't, it doesn't get gross the way that if you put too much water through the same Puck with espresso, you start to extract some stuff that you really don't want in the cup. It just at that point, it makes more sense to like an Americano kind of thing where you extract like, three or four ounces into just water and kind of treat it as a bypass. Or through circulation. Yeah, taking up to 10 or 12 ounces works really well. And what's interesting are trying to understand is like same coffee, same volume, same temperature, same everything, running it as a recirculation versus running it as a cold Americano. Even if the TDS is exactly the same extraction yields are exactly the same. perceptively they're very different and they're trying to right now understand they're both good. There's different or trying to understand why and how exactly.

Brian Renshaw:

So, yeah, that's fascinating. So, you know, the, I guess the technically cold espresso shot, have you experimented, you know, you said americanos, but even just making, you know, like an iced latte or anything like that. Does that work with something like that? Or is it more for kind of drinking it straight?

Joey Roth:

No, it works incredibly well. And this is where I'm really leaning heavily on air, the co founder of chromatic, who has a lot of experience and his team of researchers also are working on this now and once our customers start to get this in higher quantities, I think that we're really gonna see what the potential is but like right now he there is using like old school, like soda fountain style like milk frothers like the things on like a rod and this big you know, shiny stainless steel you would use for like milkshakes and things like that. to basically create micro bubble type milk textures without using heat without using steam, and then taking a cold shot from the Osma and making a truly non-diluted cold brew zero to one cappuccino or latte, which is amazing. I mean, when you think of an iced latte, you're you're thinking of things that were hot at some point and to get to what they were and then are cooled down using ice, right? This is this is creating this, this new world of things that were never had never experienced heat. And because of that, it's like the difference between like flash, pasteurized juice and like cold pressed juice, you just get more detail and you perceive things like flavors and aromas that just are either masked or completely destroyed through a hot root process. And like, you know, traditional potholder You can't even really use that in drinks. Like you can mix it with some milk and like make like kind of bubble tea type stuff with it. But it's not dense enough or really doesn't have the syrupiness that you need in order to make a really good latte or cappuccino, but the cold drop from awesome, it totally does like texture wise. It's sometimes even the syrup penises even more than you can get with a hot espresso. Yeah. So yeah, definitely. It's delicious to drink by on its own, like, I'd say, much more drinkable than just a sort of hot espresso. But we're just starting to scratch the surface on what this means for building like beverage recipes off of that.

Brian Renshaw:

So kind of the, like the setup, you know, use traditional, I think 58 millimeter portafilter. How is so like, you know, for the end user? Do you need like an espresso grinder that's, you know, good for espresso? Or is it more forgiving than doing kind of a traditional shot of espresso in terms of equipment needed to get the coffee grounds, right, you know, that you need?

Joey Roth:

Really good qu stion. For single pass, you ne d to treat it exactly is es resso. Like, the more you can pr pare that puck the way that yo would for normal hottest pr sa the better the results are go na be. Like, it's actually re arkable, like, I mean, you kn w, using a really good really co sistent espresso grinder hi ting that 200 to 300 micron pa ticle range. And then even do ng you know, the weirdo stuff li e the WDT, poking it , wh tever, all this stuff that pe ple do to prepare pucks it do s it, you will see it in the re ults you get in single pass mo e. So that's, again, kind of mo e more various area. I'm le rning about it as we do this. Bu yeah, for that, if you're wa ting to do like, cold shots, yo need a pretty good grinder. I ean, you can do it. I use li e a Baratza Sette, which is a re lly good grinder, but it's no like cafe level, but I get gr at results. So you know, ye h, you need to be able to gr nd down to espresso fineness. An it should be fairly co sistent. I think. If you have li e a blade grinder, you're go na not not get great results wi h that. Yeah. But like a ha dheld burger grinder. And pe ple also use that in a really go d result. So like a kinto, I th nk, is totally sufficient. Ju t kind of, you know, be a li tle more a little more ex rcise to get get the coffee gr und up.

Brian Renshaw:

Yeah, peopl already doing that for hot e presso. So that's neces arily not anything new.

Joey Roth:

Exactly. Yeah, you should for a single pass. You really just treat the entire pot preparation and the coffee and everything as you would traditional espresso. And by the way, if you have like a Marzocco are a 61 compatible porta filter that you already like it's totally compatible with our device. So you do not have to use the porta filter that we include. We're developing really cool, bottomless naked porta filter design. But any any porta filter out there that's designed for Marzocco or ii 61, in terms of the recirculation, so like the 10 to 12 ounce brew that yield something more like traditional cold brew, you want to go a little bit coarser, so not as coarse as you would for toddy cold brew, like where you leave it for hours, but writing around like what you do for Aeropress. So, yeah, I'd say like, if you have like a fellow owed, for example, you'd want to be on the finer settings that's capable of and that would be about perfect for for the recirculation mode. Because the whole thing is, when you do the single pass, the flow of liquid slows not not to a drip, but the flow is way, way, way lower because you Just doing a lot more work in the porta filter. Because it's only single pass the grounds are finer, you've tapped a little bit more intensely, and it's just slower. If you did that preparation for recirculation, it, you'll probably get a pretty good result. But though the liquid might only pass through the porta filter, like one and a half times over the course of the 92nd extraction, which would be like you might as well just be doing an Americano at that point. With like, five time pass, or circulation, which is sort of how you get the cold brew tastes, you want the grounds to just be coarser, because you want a higher flow through the coffee, you want sort of this not rushing, but you want a pretty, pretty substantial stream, going the entire time because it's recirculating over and over again. So yeah, grinds in the Aeropress range, we've had good success with. And again, that opens up to just a wider range of grinders, I think if you needed to, you could even use like a blade grinder and just like a sift or something if you if you really had to, but I don't think a lot of people getting the Osma Pro are using blade grinders

Brian Renshaw:

Yeah, you are at a certain coffee enthusiast level.

Joey Roth:

If you're interested, really, exactly. I think that pretty much anything, anything anyone has who's also buying this will totally be sufficient. And in terms of the actual micro range you want to target, probably like 400 to 600 is where you want to be

Brian Renshaw:

Anything else you want to say about kind of the technology behind the machine, I kinda want to get into your kind of strategy for promoting and marketing and like who this is for, but anything you want to talk about on the technology side.

Joey Roth:

No, that's, that's pretty much, that's pretty much how it works. You know, we have a lot of accessories and add ons planned. We're working on Peltier based, like active cooler, which would actually chill the water below what you put into it. And you know, because it's Peltier based, heating for free. So, you know, the Pro also does really interesting stuff with like warm water, like drinking temperature water, so we call it a warm brew, I think there's probably a better term for it. But it's basically starting with the temperature of water that you want to be drinking with. So like 60 to 70. See, that's lower temperature than you could use to brew coffee. But because heat is not actually responsible for the brewing, in this case, it has this sort of more gentle filtering effect on the compounds that get expressed. And it can lead to some really, really tasty extra extraction. So that's another area we're just starting to scratch the surface of. But starting with warm water, hot water, as opposed to ice cold water is something else that we're doing. But you know, it's a really modular system. So like from day one, it's designed so if you want to, if you have like a plumbed in water system, that you're you're treating the water and filtering the way that you want, and getting it to the minerality that you want, you can plug that directly into the Pro, we're designing a new base specifically for commercial use that, you know, to pass the certification required to sell into larger cafes, there are some certain things about like four inches off the countertops, you can wipe under things like that. But this base is also going to allow you to have a plumbed out drain line. So right now the the drip tray is removable, mainly so that you can you can empty it when there's too much liquid on it. But it's also designed as sort of a like a holder for future assessor trays that we have. And one of those will be for the commercial version that can drain directly to like a floor drain or a sink. Another one is going to be one that just raises the level closer to the bottom of the group head. So that are bought on the portafilter ones put into the specifically for like, single pass shots into smaller cups. But yeah, that's that's pretty much once we get through these pre orders, we're going to we're going to start releasing accessories pretty frequently because it's we just designed it as an expandable system to kind of build into whatever whatever you want it to be as the end user either professional or home barista.

Brian Renshaw:

Very cool. So instead of doing you know like a Kickstarter project or something like that, that most companies are doing you just went went for just straight pre orders. How What is your reasoning behind that? And how's that been going? Yeah, so

Joey Roth:

that's just always been how I've done it. I've I started before Kickstarter existed. So you know, looking at Kickstarter. There there definitely advantages if we'd gone that way. Like specifically, everyone would see that we've we've sold through 800 versus me just telling you right now And there's not really a great way to show that on the site without it seeming sort of, sort of scammy.

Brian Renshaw:

Right.

Joey Roth:

You know, it is what it is. But but really like Kickstarter has become such a specific platform that you need to make a specific campaign around, like creative messaging sort of everything. And it's become like less transferable to like the actual products, messaging and branding and an overall vibe, after the campaign is done. And what I've seen more and more is like companies that start on Kickstarter, always sort of like have some Kickstarter Enos about them, I don't really want I don't know a better way to describe it, it's not a bad, it's just it just has a really leaves its mark on the brand and sort of the the associations with a product. And that works great for a lot of products. I just, I didn't, it's not that it's, again, it's not that it's bad, it's that I just don't really have experience running the product like that. And I felt like, you know, this is the kind of thing where we're manufacturing it domestically, couple, you know, half hour outside of Portland, Oregon, in small batches. There's no like, big chunk of money hurdle that we needed to clear in order to get this off the ground. And that was the other reason that we decided to start taking pre orders. So like we could, we started manufacturing, once we got our, like, 15th pre order. Whereas with Kickstarter, I think it makes a lot of sense of you like you can't really start because you have tooling costs and setup costs until you get to 100k or something like that. So the economics were a little different with this. And yeah, I think that just like, from the get go, I wanted to the other thing that Kickstarter does that is so valuable. But there's just other tools for now is it creates a space for our community to form around a product. Yeah. And community, especially with something that doesn't exist yet, especially with something that we're going to be looking to our early users to figure out. What are the coolest things you can actually do with this is just so so so critical for something like what we're trying to do here. And Kickstarter was an incredible platform for community to form around something. With like discord, though, and I mean, we're choosing slack and discord, discord has made more sense. But with products like that, like slack and discord, and just places for communities to meet and to get to know each other and to grow. we've, we've had like, tremendous success with that. And very few people have even gotten their units yet. I mean, we have people on our discord who were like, I only need to check in like once a day now because there are people who will answer questions for new new people considering the device who come in and like, make an account and start asking people things. And these are people who haven't gotten their awesomeness yet. They're just like so into it, that they've basically absorbed all the information about it from our side. And from talking with me. And it's, it's really cool to see. So yeah, I think that community is huge. It's just Kickstarter is not the only solution for that anymore.

Brian Renshaw:

So you've talked about, you know, for cafes, and for home use? Do you see this kind of going evenly out between both of them? Or, you know, when you think about the future of the product? Where do you see it kind of landed?

Joey Roth:

I think that it's so it's always going to be something that I want people to be using in both. And I think that's really important for the future of the product. And where I want to see it grow, we're probably going to be selling more to home users just because there are far more harm users in our cafes. But it always needs to be the kind of product that can be used in either one and meet the standards of either one. And I think that that the adoption by cafes is important because it's both a place where people can try it for the first time where they can learn about it, like encountering for the first time even. It's also the more we're in cafes, the more innovation that will be around what you can do with it. Like that's one of the most exciting things is making a tool that could kind of increase the level of expressivity that that people who are just really, really, really good and creative with coffee are able to do. And then I think that the other thing is always having cafes as a major part of our customer base. They're just extremely demanding in terms of putting these things through really challenging, high volume situations and they will if we ever introduced like a new feature or a new design, they'll be the ones Who are kinda like iron out and detect weak points? Or bugs way faster than somebody who's using this even like five times a day? So it's it's definitely both. I don't want to split the product line at any point, it's more just going to be what what assessories do you use either make it more of a home device or more of a cafe device?

Brian Renshaw:

Fascinating. All right, so what are kind of last question here, like, for you, you've talked about the modularity seen in cafes and at home, is there anything else for the the future of the Osma Pro, or even kind of you guys in the space creating, that you're hoping to see in the next, you know, 5-10 years,

Joey Roth:

I think that this, this use of acoustic cavitation for extraction, there's a lot of depth there. And, and we're going to continue to do basic research and innovation around that. I, you know, the heart of the Osma Pro is our pump. And we've spent most of our development time on this actually designing the pump. There's a lot, a lot more that can be done with that. And I think that getting into like, you know, new, fundamentally new kinds of pump design specifically for creating this tunable oscillating pressure. And actually being able to tune the the also the frequency of that on the fly over the course of a brew, to create different effects and give another level of control to the user is something that we definitely want to get into do temperature control, active temperature control across the brew, you know, basically treating the grouphead as like a water block in a water cooled PC system more or less and sticking and Peltier on the other side of that and be able to raise and drop the temperature during the the brew cycle. And to get different effects from that. Pretty much we just want to I mean, if you look at like, like a company like Moog or something that makes synthesizers, we want to make the best, most interesting and most useful tools for the people who are really creative with coffee, to enhance their creativity, and just give them the levers of control necessary to take coffee in new directions. And that's the kind of thing I could absolutely work on for like 10 years plus, I mean, that's that's a really exciting, really exciting task for me, though. And that's ultimately what we're pursuing.

Brian Renshaw:

That's awesome. All right. Well, this was a lot of fun, Joey.

Joey Roth:

Thank you, Brian.

Brian Renshaw:

I learned a ton. And it has me very interested just in the the product and kind of like what you said, the end user and like the creativity, what you can do with something like this, you know, just giving it into the hands of people that can you know, take it a step further of things you've never even thought of. This was a this was a really fun conversation.

Joey Roth:

Absolutely. Thank you so much, Brian. And yeah, any, any follow up questions? Anybody you or anybody listening, do not hesitate to join that Discord that I mentioned, I or one of our users will gladly like talk your ear off like 10 times longer than what we did here. about what we're doing, people are very, very excited about, like, what the possibilities are with this, this new way of brewing coffee, for sure.

Brian Renshaw:

Well, I'll put, if you send me the links, I'll put them in the show notes. And make sure people have access to that and then they can follow you on Instagram over over there. And yeah, so thanks again.

Joey Roth:

Absolutely. Thanks so much Brian.

Brian Renshaw:

Well, thank you for listening to this conversation with Joey Roth. I'm sure it piqued your interest in this new technology. And be sure to check out their website to learn more. You can find more of Joey and Drink Osma on Instagram @drinkosma. All one word and on their website at drinkosma.com. You can find me on Instagram with daily coffee content @_freshly_brewed and on YouTube with a video each week at youtube.com/BrianRenshaw. Thanks for listening